Ace Karate Forum

www.genjitsu.co.uk
It is currently Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:27 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:24 am
Posts: 305
Peter constantly stresses that for this speed is not the issue at all. And to be fair, when he demonstrates it, it isn't.

This is also the hardest I have ever been hit and I have been hit by a lot of people (please form a orderly queue).

Now is this because it is the best punching method there is or is it because Peter has got it down to a fine art (and he's not a small lad either)!

As for chambering, no he doesn't and he can do it from many hand positions.

_________________
Andi Kidd

Few men are born brave; many become so through training and force of discipline - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 36
Quote:
Peter has got it down to a fine art (and he's not a small lad either)!


There is a lot to the size business. I used to train with a very solidly built RCMP officer who was really very slow in movement, but when that man caught you with a reverse punch your entire world came screaming to a halt while you gasped for air and tried to keep your wits about you. There was a solidity about his punch unmatched by most other people.

He used to tell a funny story. At the police academy they would do training scenarios where somewhere in the 5 minute "domestic dispute" the officer knew the shit was going to hit the fan. Once in maybe twenty or thirty scenarios nothing would happen, or it would immediately go to hell or go to hell in that last moment. The officer had no idea when. Dan, my friend, thought he was going to get out of the scenario Scot-free when the actor pulls out a knife and charges him. Without thought or hesitation, Dan slams him with the hardest reverse punch he could muster; 220 lbs of Dan, standing flat-footed in military boots and charged with a blast of adreneline. The actor was wearing body armor but still did not get up for nearly 30 minutes. The actor never volunteered for those scenarios again. I sympathized with the actor; I knew how hard that old man could hit.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 70
Location: North Carolina
Ace Ventura wrote:
As for chambering, no he doesn't and he can do it from many hand positions.

Doing a 2 candle punch, this is the way I learned also - hand dangling. I don't think you can do this with any kind of tension, and you have to use the shukokai hip to get enough speed into the fist. The hardest is to place the 2 candles 1 inch apart, and snuff the farther away candle but leave the closer candle burning. It can be done; I have done it. The physics involve laminar flow of the air in the cushion riding in front of the fist. The air breaks into turbulent flow only when it is past the first flame as the fist stops. Takes a very smooth acceleration and a perfect velocity profile in the punch.
<evil sensei mode off > :)

_________________
E. Schmeisser


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 36
Quote:
shukokai hip to get enough speed into the fist


So taking this discussion even farther into the technical (or shallower but more philosophical). I googled "shukokai" and reviewed about ten tapes on the punching method. Fantastic amount of power there no doubt, but used as a pure technique there seems to be an immense amount of telegraphing movement. There is no hiding these punches because they are huge!!!

So, here is the question: at what point does the cost-benefit balance tip with regards to power output and telegraphing movement?

BTW: I was experimenting with the action last night and found there was a distinct increase in power output when I smack the bag. On the other hand, to cover that big hip loading movement, I would have to do some pretty big magic. And maybe that is the answer: the big hammer of the reverse punch would always be preceded by a jab (applied on the thrust of the lead hip) or a "block".

Realistically, how powerful does a punch need to be if we all are willing to admit that "ikken hisatsu" is an unrealistic ideal?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 8:42 pm
Posts: 70
Location: North Carolina
Bryce-I-Fleming wrote:
the big hammer of the reverse punch would always be preceded by a jab (applied on the thrust of the lead hip) or a "block".

Or a grab to immobilize the target :)

_________________
E. Schmeisser


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:23 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Greensboro, NC
Bryce-I-Fleming wrote:
Realistically, how powerful does a punch need to be if we all are willing to admit that "ikken hisatsu" is an unrealistic ideal?

I don't know that it's unrealistic considering the number of people, both trained and untrained fighters, I've seen get knocked out or down by a single punch.

Also, I think we're also dealing a little bit here with the difference in what is an idealized technique in training compared to what is actually done during a fight. Consider all the fundamental blocks we teach beginners. All of them, if done exactly as taught would be too slow to block anything and are horribly telegraphed. I think the same applies to this type of punch.

_________________
Alex Parks


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 10:26 am
Posts: 206
Location: Cambridge, UK
Talking of being technical and of telegraphing and being slow, it is possible to put some crude figures on the speed Peter Consterdine's punch. If you download the video and then single step, you can count the video frames between the various phases and knowing that it's 29 frames per sec work out the timing, giving you:

Hip coming forward = 340 msec
Punch from rest to contact = 200 msec
Total time = 540 msec, ie just over ½ sec.

The average measured response time (reaction + movement) is about 250 msec so in theory there should be plenty of time to do something about blocking or getting out of the way of the punch. There are a couple of things that may change that though.

1) Experimental response times are normally measured quite simplistically, flash a light, push a button type of thing. In the "defend against a punch" situation you have to do quite a bit more than that. The brain at some level has to interpret what that hip movement represents, decide on the appropriate response, initiate that response and the musculo / skeletal system complete that response. I suspect that even with years of practice getting that reaction to work and complete at the subconscious level to give an appropriate response is going to be rather more than 250 msec.

2) We do most of our training in the dojo, under rather idealised conditions with people of equal (ish) training. Take this situation out to a bar or a street confrontation, I would guess that your average Joe would probably only have time to flinch at the hip movement, before Peter's short range punch would be busy deforming his rib-cage.

Geof

_________________
Geof Smith
(Of course you believe in free will, you have no choice.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Chiba Prefecture Japan
To me that video was total karate. His ideas are fine, except for the back action of a karate punch. If you do a punch correctly, the opposite does not move back. The whole body moves into the target.(Many karate people misunderstand hikute side. Hikute, does not mean pulling the half the body away from the action)

Funny I have been fooling around with something similar using a combnination of back leg and front leg,but never considered it not karate. BTW, I am trying to find out the term of Iishun no shindo. Shindo means vibration, as in shake. But, I do not think hip shake translates to hip vibration here in Japan. Isshun, I am guessing right now, means....first round, or first time around.

So, maybe Iishun no shindo means the very first vibration?????
Maybe even initial vibration. And if it that is it, then that is what I call hip true hip vibration.

Is shimmy and vibration the same thing in English. To me they are same but also different on a very small level.

_________________
John Price-Kataoka


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Chiba Prefecture Japan
Iishun means in a blink of an eye. ie the time it takes for the eye to blink. So, it means very fast, for an instant, like a flash of lighting, etc.

Shindo, means vibration.

So instant vibration OR very short duration vibration. One of these could be the meaning of Issyun no shindo. :geek:

_________________
John Price-Kataoka


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Issyun no shindo
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 4:45 am
Posts: 36
Quote:
So instant vibration OR very short duration vibration. One of these could be the meaning of Issyun no shindo.


In the context of the book I got that from, that translation makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Now comes the question: are Kawasoe and Consterdine talking about the same thing? Consterdine's demonstration makes sense with the references to "tension loading" the tendons around the joints involved in the punch and certainly Kawasoe discusses Shukokai as his example, yet I got the impression that Kawasoe was discussing something along the line of rapid jack-hammer like vibrations that occur after completion of the punch.

Is it possible that Kawasoe was mixing two completely different concepts in one discussion and throwing them under the same heading?

I repeat I was disappointed in the text in that it spent immense amount of time discussing historical performances (i.e.: Funakoshi's front stance and back stance versus the rest of the world) and then proceeded to do a terrrible job of discussing actual technical performance issues. The author did make a big point to the effect that the text was not a training manual but a philosophical discussion, so maybe I can cut him some slack, but if you are going to write a fairly lengthy book, I would hope that you would make some clear point beyond that ever enjoyable Japanese term for "I don't know": this concept needs much greater study (seen in just about ever damn Japanese karate book I own)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group