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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:42 am 
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I was getting people to do a drill that I stole (and modified slightly) shamelessly from a Shorinji Kempo course I went on.

Basically it consisted of two people standing in stance, in range, and one would punch jab, reverse (kizami,gyakyu) in front stance, and the defender would block but transition to back stance, aid avoidance. They would then transition back to front stance to perform the jab, reverse and the original attacker would block. Neither practitioner would (or should, persuading some not to was tricky) to move their feet, just rotate them as necessary.
This continued until tiredness or boredom ensued

What actually happened was that most of them stayed in front stance and blocked (sometimes ;) ). A couple of them took quite a bit of persuasion to really transition their weight.


Bearing in mind most of these were dan grades, and knew how to make the stances, I was surprised how few of them seemed to have integrated their use rather than the usual geometry on how to form the stance. (Front foot this angle, back foot this angle, etc). This after all seems partly what these stances are for, though as much is about the transition as the final stance.

Any comments?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:50 am 
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Hi Malk,

I remember very long time ago I tried Kung Fu for a (very) short while, they had a similar exercise where the emphasis was on the shifting of the weight from to the front leg when punching and to the back for blocking, the feet did not move; I believe (I might be wrong though… it was very long time ago) that the first aim was to strengthen the legs and the other to kind learn to stay in range and counter and attack.

In Aikido we have few harmony exercises (no punching or blocking is used during those exercises well at least in the KI style that I practice) where we learn to move our centre (shifting the weight) . Many Aikido techniques use that kind of rolling back and forward movement

I might be tempting my fate here, but in Heian Shodan after the first kiai there is a gedan-barai, there I believe gedan-barai is considered to be a throw, there you can see the shifting of weight from one leg to the other , true that feet do move.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Maybe being black belts is part of the problem? Maybe they know they can block from where they are without this movement?

Are they close enough to actually hit?

Intergtaing technique and coming to be able to 'use it' in your own way is not one of karate's strong points IMHO. Even at 20 years plus the look seems more important than the effect in many circles.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Ace Ventura wrote:
Maybe being black belts is part of the problem? Maybe they know they can block from where they are without this movement?

Sometimes, but they are struggling.

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Are they close enough to actually hit?

Yes, though its not done competitively (well if they're doing it right), its just trying to get them to move (without moving)
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Intergtaing technique and coming to be able to 'use it' in your own way is not one of karate's strong points IMHO. Even at 20 years plus the look seems more important than the effect in many circles.

True.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Malk wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Maybe being black belts is part of the problem? Maybe they know they can block from where they are without this movement?

Sometimes, but they are struggling.


Hmmmm, that is odd then, people naturally move away so maybe it is trained out of them?

Quote:
Quote:
Are they close enough to actually hit?

Yes, though its not done competitively (well if they're doing it right), its just trying to get them to move (without moving)


Maybe it is jst not normal. Moving without moving. Maybe too much steeping in basics?

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Intergtaing technique and coming to be able to 'use it' in your own way is not one of karate's strong points IMHO. Even at 20 years plus the look seems more important than the effect in many circles.

True.


I do think that a lot of peole lose sight of a goal in training and it becomes a process in itself.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:56 pm 
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It sounds quite Wado like. If I remember rightly in a lot of their techniques the block is really there as an insurance measure, avoidance of the strike is primarily through body shifting. If Brian gets to training tonight, I'll see if I can verify that and produce a couple of examples. The exact opposite is in shotokan jyu ippon jodan 2, where you actually move in to attack trusting in your sweeping block to keep youy face intact whilst delivering a short ura tsuki under the ribs. Took me along time to not flinch in that one.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:54 am 
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GeofS wrote:
The exact opposite is in shotokan jyu ippon jodan 2


What is this? I didn't realise shotokan had fixed stuff like this?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:32 am 
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Ace Ventura wrote:
GeofS wrote:
The exact opposite is in shotokan jyu ippon jodan 2


What is this? I didn't realise shotokan had fixed stuff like this?


I think this is a thing that seems to come from Mr Kanazawa. People I know who have trained with groups, at least once associated with the SKI, have pre-set jyu-ippons in my experience.
Whereas Mr Enoeda, and the KUGB, had some suggested defences which were what most people did, but not required, as far as I remember.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:25 am 
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Ace Ventura wrote:
GeofS wrote:
The exact opposite is in shotokan jyu ippon jodan 2

What is this? I didn't realise shotokan had fixed stuff like this?
You are joshin' me here, aren't you ?
Malk wrote:
I think this is a thing that seems to come from Mr Kanazawa. People I know who have trained with groups, at least once associated with the SKI, have pre-set jyu-ippons in my experience.
Whereas Mr Enoeda, and the KUGB, had some suggested defences which were what most people did, but not required, as far as I remember.

Sure Kanazawa sensei's groups did it and my sensei trained under Enoeda and we did it very similar to Kanazawa's groups. In fact all Shotakan sensei I've trained with did it in very similar fashion. Start at 5th kyu with 12 techniques finishing up at 1st kyu with 48 (24 on each side) - really enjoyable when you get going if a little tiring.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:31 am 
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I've never heard of preset numbered jiyu ippon sparring drills either, and that's with mulitple Japanese instructors on both the East and West coasts of the U.S.

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