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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:09 am 
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GeofS wrote:
Hi Frank,
You don’t actually say so, but reading between the lines I infer (correct me if I'm wrong) that in answer to the question / title of the post, you would say no, meotode should not be part of Shotokan standard training looking from your particular perspective, and I have no argument with that since it is your perspective..


Reading between the lines is often not such a clear or good thing :-) In fact I think it is important to learn / teach many uses of the drawing hand as a guide, to grab or to add striking power.

My only comment is work on basics first, if one tries to introduce to many concepts to students to early most often basics suffers.

F A


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:14 pm 
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F Ace wrote:
GeofS wrote:
Hi Frank,
You don’t actually say so, but reading between the lines I infer (correct me if I'm wrong) that in answer to the question / title of the post, you would say no, meotode should not be part of Shotokan standard training looking from your particular perspective, and I have no argument with that since it is your perspective..


Reading between the lines is often not such a clear or good thing :-) In fact I think it is important to learn / teach many uses of the drawing hand as a guide, to grab or to add striking power.

My only comment is work on basics first, if one tries to introduce to many concepts to students to early most often basics suffers.

F A


True, but by adding different scenarios from the standard punch/kick/block can aid understanding the body mechanics of basic techniques, in my experience.
So for example, using uchi-uke (inside-to-outside block) against a single hand lapel grab can help teach how body positioning and not skimping on elbow movement, are vital to power.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:03 pm 
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F Ace wrote:
Take a better look at the full video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t82j4cBwuwM

1- The bus driver has words with her for a full 3:10.

2- The person crosses over the yellow line and grabs at the driver early on and endangers all on the bus as its in motion in traffic.

3 - Driver instructs person to stay behind the yellow line and yet again she becomes aggressive with the driver as the bus is in motion.

4 - The "teen" is actualy a 25 year old woman, who according the police report " strikes the bus driver first " he then tries to make a cell call and she " strikes the phone out of his hand and attempts to choke bus driver ", then " spits on the driver ". All as the bus is in motion.

This is not a " first strike decisive blow " matter , as the woman in fact bounces back onto the bus and passengers had to restrain her. The whole incident came about because she refused to initially pay the bus riding cost. It has NOT been noted that the driver has any " martial arts " training.

When you digest the FACTS a second side of the story is then clear. But the uber liberal UK press took the video out of context and seems to paint the bus driver as the evil person.

Little will happen, no jail term... now the driver clearly escalated the matter, he could have simply asked the lady to pay, when she did not , call the authorities and had her arrested. He will more than likely be assigned sensitivity training and get a desk job or maybe fired, but with union help or that of a judge reviewing the FACTS in my opinion, nothing will become of this, nor should it. If anything this is a prime example of poor upbringing of both parties.

In LA were I reside we have many gangs, rank is obtained by assaulting and or shooting random people, girls 12 ~ 15 knowing that the laws will not sentence them to hard time are recruited to assist in assaults or robbery with weapons. Often young girls place a single edge razor blade in the mouth and carry it there and are quite skilled at slashing an arm or neck. A 90 pound 14 year old girl can cut you such that you will bleed out in 3 minutes.

With all that said EVERY situation revolves around it's own set of circumstances. If at a family party and cousin Joe has a few to many drinks and starts to play grab ass with the ladies, ask him to go home, if he gets crazy , pop him in the solar plexus, blow the wind out of him. Now if he goes in the kitchen and comes out with a knife or returns with a gun .... game on. The old saying stands " better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6 " .

Keep in mind that in the UK were your commenting from my guess is that 1 in every 500 ~ 1000 households may have access to a hand held firearm. In the USA if you stop 20 youth on the street after 12 PM in many urban areas 2 may have a handgun !

In my town EVERY patrolling officer wears a bullet proof vest, they will not stop or approach suspects without a back up police car and 3 more officers.

If you do not train daily with conviction in delivering a finishing blow, don't be shocked when you need this and its simply not there :-( If you personally want to lean more towards control & grappling in the face of serious matter, I am ok with that - but please just discuss with your family and loved ones the cost savings of cremation vs burial in advance.


F A


You miss the point.

First, I'm completely aware of all four neatly numbered details. I didn't discuss the FACTS of this case because as I pointed out:

Quote:
Though I use the clip as illustration I am not saying the bus driver was in a real self defence situation, but he certainly could have been, and unless the woman in front of him had drawn a gun no amount of aggression from her would have made a punch like that garner enough sympathy to guarantee he would be a free man afterwards.


I wasn't trying to discuss the facts of the case, simply that situations like this do arise and a solid punch is not always the best way to handle it.

Second, I heard about this from an American news source and have not seen any uk coverage of the story. (By liberal media do you mean one that researches facts, challenges politicians and doesn't tell bare faced lies to it's viewers?)

I do believe that had this happened here in the scarily liberal uk, he would have been jailed for assault because:
 she was no danger to him,
He used excessive force, and
Annoying as it is slapping a phone out of someones ear then backing away as she did, while it may be a minor assault is nothing that would harm a man his size nor put him in fear of harm. 

Also the fact that she recovered and kept coming is actually part of my point. You couldn't wish for a cleaner connection, nor a more vulnerable opponent and SHE KEPT COMMING (see I can use the caps lock too). You don't, can't know when you hit someone how much damage you will or will not do or how they will respond. They may bounce back, they may die. Popping cousin Joe in the solar plexus may just make him mad enough to get a knife where  a wider skill-set may have avoided a family tragedy.

Power striking, especially emphasis on a single shot, is as unreliable as any other single method. There's the proof. 

As I've said before I agree wholeheartedly about an emphasis on basics and in particular development of power striking as the primary method. However no single facet of karate is completely effective in all situations without the others, nor was it ever intended to be so (hence we have kata as well as makiwara).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Location: Long Beach , CA - USA
RenegadeMonk wrote:
F Ace wrote:
Take a better look at the full video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t82j4cBwuwM

1- The bus driver has words with her for a full 3:10.

2- The person crosses over the yellow line and grabs at the driver early on and endangers all on the bus as its in motion in traffic.

3 - Driver instructs person to stay behind the yellow line and yet again she becomes aggressive with the driver as the bus is in motion.

4 - The "teen" is actualy a 25 year old woman, who according the police report " strikes the bus driver first " he then tries to make a cell call and she " strikes the phone out of his hand and attempts to choke bus driver ", then " spits on the driver ". All as the bus is in motion.

This is not a " first strike decisive blow " matter , as the woman in fact bounces back onto the bus and passengers had to restrain her. The whole incident came about because she refused to initially pay the bus riding cost. It has NOT been noted that the driver has any " martial arts " training.

When you digest the FACTS a second side of the story is then clear. But the uber liberal UK press took the video out of context and seems to paint the bus driver as the evil person.

Little will happen, no jail term... now the driver clearly escalated the matter, he could have simply asked the lady to pay, when she did not , call the authorities and had her arrested. He will more than likely be assigned sensitivity training and get a desk job or maybe fired, but with union help or that of a judge reviewing the FACTS in my opinion, nothing will become of this, nor should it. If anything this is a prime example of poor upbringing of both parties.

In LA were I reside we have many gangs, rank is obtained by assaulting and or shooting random people, girls 12 ~ 15 knowing that the laws will not sentence them to hard time are recruited to assist in assaults or robbery with weapons. Often young girls place a single edge razor blade in the mouth and carry it there and are quite skilled at slashing an arm or neck. A 90 pound 14 year old girl can cut you such that you will bleed out in 3 minutes.

With all that said EVERY situation revolves around it's own set of circumstances. If at a family party and cousin Joe has a few to many drinks and starts to play grab ass with the ladies, ask him to go home, if he gets crazy , pop him in the solar plexus, blow the wind out of him. Now if he goes in the kitchen and comes out with a knife or returns with a gun .... game on. The old saying stands " better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6 " .

Keep in mind that in the UK were your commenting from my guess is that 1 in every 500 ~ 1000 households may have access to a hand held firearm. In the USA if you stop 20 youth on the street after 12 PM in many urban areas 2 may have a handgun !

In my town EVERY patrolling officer wears a bullet proof vest, they will not stop or approach suspects without a back up police car and 3 more officers.

If you do not train daily with conviction in delivering a finishing blow, don't be shocked when you need this and its simply not there :-( If you personally want to lean more towards control & grappling in the face of serious matter, I am ok with that - but please just discuss with your family and loved ones the cost savings of cremation vs burial in advance.


F A


You miss the point.

First, I'm completely aware of all four neatly numbered details. I didn't discuss the FACTS of this case because as I pointed out:

Quote:
Though I use the clip as illustration I am not saying the bus driver was in a real self defence situation, but he certainly could have been, and unless the woman in front of him had drawn a gun no amount of aggression from her would have made a punch like that garner enough sympathy to guarantee he would be a free man afterwards.


I wasn't trying to discuss the facts of the case, simply that situations like this do arise and a solid punch is not always the best way to handle it.

Second, I heard about this from an American news source and have not seen any uk coverage of the story. (By liberal media do you mean one that researches facts, challenges politicians and doesn't tell bare faced lies to it's viewers?)

I do believe that had this happened here in the scarily liberal uk, he would have been jailed for assault because:
 she was no danger to him,
He used excessive force, and
Annoying as it is slapping a phone out of someones ear then backing away as she did, while it may be a minor assault is nothing that would harm a man his size nor put him in fear of harm. 

Also the fact that she recovered and kept coming is actually part of my point. You couldn't wish for a cleaner connection, nor a more vulnerable opponent and SHE KEPT COMMING (see I can use the caps lock too). You don't, can't know when you hit someone how much damage you will or will not do or how they will respond. They may bounce back, they may die. Popping cousin Joe in the solar plexus may just make him mad enough to get a knife where  a wider skill-set may have avoided a family tragedy.

Power striking, especially emphasis on a single shot, is as unreliable as any other single method. There's the proof. 

As I've said before I agree wholeheartedly about an emphasis on basics and in particular development of power striking as the primary method. However no single facet of karate is completely effective in all situations without the others, nor was it ever intended to be so (hence we have kata as well as makiwara).


What part of choking a bus driver as he is driving a public bus at speed with the care and safety of others - qualifies as " she was no danger to him " ?

No mention has been made to his martial arts training or even skilled at boxing, clearly because she was still standing and able to bounce right back up. The effectiveness of his " deadly strike " was null. At best it was a pushing , glancing powerless upper strike, he was up on his heals, lots of arm, but no body behind the movement.

Your viewing this and comparing it to a serious strike of a properly trained martial arts person has no merit. I can only conclude that you may have not been exposed to people who have perfected such ability.

F A


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:44 am 
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How many people have you actually seen your teachers knock out with a single blow? Or is this another article of faith?

You remind me of a devout christian i once new. No matter how heinous the crime or how blatant the evidence he had an excuse for why the interpretation of Christianity he had been told was the only true thing anywhere. It must be nice in your world.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:09 am 
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Location: Long Beach , CA - USA
RenegadeMonk wrote:
How many people have you actually seen your teachers knock out with a single blow? Or is this another article of faith?


Something I am not overly proud of but glad I experienced. The direct answer to your question is dozens during my time at Sensei Nishiyama's dojo. Almost never by Sensei himself but by seniors, mostly during the infamous Friday night team training. Somehow I survived ! It was a product of the crazy Japanese university training system that Sensei Nishiyama brought to the USA.

I have offered and will again to explore and train with you during my New Years visit to Europe :-)

Should you wish to explore this topic more, please feel free to contact me off the forum, as we have as usual drifted far from the OP's posting.

All my contact info is available on my blog :http://emptyhandway.blogspot.com/

Best regards

F A


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:05 am 
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There is a lot here in this thread I'd like to talk about but I'll limit myself to start with!

Medote is part of shotokan training, as has been said hikite is an example and Funakoshi explains this as you quoted. I'd say this is one of the major difference between sport based systems and self protection systems as a whole and whilst I teach covering as you hit, grabbiong and holding as you hit is much more reliable.

Basics are important. We all know this. As well as air punching, basic punching includes, bag work, or makiwara or focus mitts or all of the above.

How long does it take someone to throw a powerful shot, shouldn't be long otherwise the training is useless. Will it get better over time, of course but as time goes on you will improve less, it is the nature of the beast.

You cannot rely on a single shot knocking someone out, even if you have done it hundreds of times before. Reaad 'Watch my back' by Geoff Thompson. Hundreds of one hit knockouts and then he meets granite jaw. Nothing is 100% reliable, except death and taxes ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:23 am 
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I think that the hikite aspect of holding or pulling on with one hand while attacking with the other, is actually only one part on the concept of Meotode (and not often taught at that). It's core thinking is really about using both hands together and stresses the simultaneity of defence and attack. If you block or deflect with one hand whilst at the same instant attacking with the other you can achieve a real advantage in terms of leaving your opponent no time to respond or react. The only time we practice something akin to this is in some of the jyu - ippon kumite but it really is there in a lot of the kata. It just needs pulling out and putting together for teaching purposes - you might do that in your classes but it sure wasn't done in mine.

I have found some thirty four photographs of Motobu doing his version of Naihanchi together with twenty pictures demonstrating his applications in the kata and meotode features in virtually all of them. I'm spending a little while cleaning the pictures up and sequencing them and will post a link to them in a few days time so that you can see what I mean.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:13 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf25GxeLjc

If you hunt around you can find them being performed by Chosei Motobu along with explanations of all three tekki kata.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:17 am 
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RenegadeMonk wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdf25GxeLjc

If you hunt around you can find them being performed by Chosei Motobu along with explanations of all three tekki kata.

Thanks for the link Dave, I had found a description of the first of the drills on Iain Abernathy's site, but this gives all twelve and in enough detail to practice. It'll be interesting to compare them to his Naihanchi Oyo. They look pretty practical and the abundance of roundhouse swings should please the realism aficionados. A copy is now in my archives should the original disappear.
I also found this site [Link] when I was searching around which is the motobu-ryu home website. Although part of the site is in Japanese, some is in English and has some transcripts of interviews that Choki Motobu gave later in his life - interesting stuff.

I also came across this photograph.
Image
Which is of the son, Chosei Motobu, in Me-oto-de kamae, the ready posture to apply a technique utilising husband and wife hands.
Looks an awful lot like the morote uke that appears in many of the Shotokan kata!
The lower hand looks like it could be in ippon ken - although it could just be damage from lots of makiwara work :) .

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