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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:52 pm 
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Dear Geoff

It is just a thought, but compare this with Chinte, where the transition from fudo dachi to zenkutsu dachi by straightening the rear leg is explicitly practised.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Brodie wrote:
Dear Geof
It is just a thought, but compare this with Chinte, where the transition from fudo dachi to zenkutsu dachi by straightening the rear leg is explicitly practised.

Yes, you're absolutely right! - Chinte is not a kata that is in my repertoire - I vaguely remember doing it on a course back in the day and of course the poking in the eyes and the funny little back hops are the only bits that stuck in the memory. Looking it up, it occur 6 times , combining it 4 times with an augmented tate ken, once with a tate enpi and once with a teisho uchi, all transitioning from fudu dachi to zenkutsu dachi. Lots of unusual postures and techniques as well - must pay it a bit more attention.

The tate shuto in fudo dachi to gyaku tsuki in zenkustu dachi transition and back again is something I got out of ten no kata and almost always use when practising gyaku tsuki to the heavy bag and hence is something that feels just right to me when I do Sochin.

Thanks for the thought.

Geof

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:41 am 
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The question of twist or no twist is an interesting one. In the long haul we should strive to make good strong technique yet keeping in mind that although we all have two arms , legs , elbows etc ... we are in fact sometimes very different. The ability to twist in one person can be major while another may be limited, a good instructor will always keep this in mind. As long as the end result is a solid rooted stance to assist in delivering a strong technique small movement or large is ok in my opinion.

* EDIT * Twisting of the spine is an area that I am now of course very careful of these days post back injury, its only now some years later that I remember both Sensei Nishiyama warning me and most recently Sensei Yabe informing me to be observant of the back (long distance kicking and spinning hook kicks, are very hard these days). Visit a TKD or Judo club and see how many post 40 year old practitioners with no injury, my point is quality karate-do training should be for a lifetime, not just your 20's ~ 40's, but to remain in good health until the dipper stage is upon you again :-)

Sochin (again in my opinion) is about understanding the smooth flowing application of power and the ability to go from soft to hard in a flash.

F A


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:00 am 
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GeofS wrote:
Brodie wrote:
Dear Geof
It is just a thought, but compare this with Chinte, where the transition from fudo dachi to zenkutsu dachi by straightening the rear leg is explicitly practised.

Yes, you're absolutely right! - Chinte is not a kata that is in my repertoire - I vaguely remember doing it on a course back in the day and of course the poking in the eyes and the funny little back hops are the only bits that stuck in the memory. Looking it up, it occur 6 times , combining it 4 times with an augmented tate ken, once with a tate enpi and once with a teisho uchi, all transitioning from fudu dachi to zenkutsu dachi. Lots of unusual postures and techniques as well - must pay it a bit more attention.

The tate shuto in fudo dachi to gyaku tsuki in zenkustu dachi transition and back again is something I got out of ten no kata and almost always use when practising gyaku tsuki to the heavy bag and hence is something that feels just right to me when I do Sochin.

Thanks for the thought.

Geof


I rather like Chinte. I know that in "traditional" Shotokan, it is not even taught to most people until 4th Dan, and men are particularly discouraged from doing it in competition.

In our system (basically an amalgamation, or perhaps distillation, of Shotokan, Shukokai, Kyukushinkai, Judo and self-defence, culled from ninjitsu and South African military CQB, where Dan grades are srongly encouraged to cross-train), self-protection is a very high priority. Chinte is our official 3rd Kyu kata, but we have always done it minus the hops, and with the nakadaka ippon ken retained in the "double punch" in front and behind.

I really enjoy practicing the kata, although my knowledge on its bunkai is still a work in progress. I like to use the tate shuto uchi as a strike with the vertical knifehand behind the point of the jaw, or a forearm strike to the carotid sinus (pretty much the same movement, the target dictated by the relative distance from the opponent, followed by controlling him by the neck, holding him steady for the big punch on the nose.

I also like the siezing the bicep with thomb and two fingers application, before you poke him in the eyes.

All good stuff.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:02 am 
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F Ace wrote:
Sochin (again in my opinion) is about understanding the smooth flowing application of power and the ability to go from soft to hard in a flash.

F A


"...understanding ... the application ..." That would be bunkai wouldn't it? :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:09 pm 
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No, you should not twist or rotate your hips very much at all. Hip vibration is what you should do. And what I mean is nothing more than a slight movement of the hip to aid in the effectiveness of the punch. There should be no big hip movements. That is begginer mistake IMO.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 am 
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I have not studied Sochin in depth at all, I like the start but I neeed more work on the stance.

I don't actually lear many kata and people are usually suprised if I say, "I don't know that one" as they expect me to know many more. The last two years most of my work has ben on the heian kata and they have more to offer than I have time to play with!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Makoto wrote:
No, you should not twist or rotate your hips very much at all. Hip vibration is what you should do. And what I mean is nothing more than a slight movement of the hip to aid in the effectiveness of the punch. There should be no big hip movements. That is begginer mistake IMO.

Hi John,
I wonder if you could elaborate a little on your answer? Are you looking at this from the point of view of delivery of a gyaku tsuki from fudo dachi or from the an oyo aspect of it's inclusion in Sochin?
I think the term "hip vibration" is really misleading. My understanding is that it's not really a vibration more of a slight rotation in in the backwards direction before rotation in the actual direction of the strike. Do you perform your technique using the front hip as the axis of rotation (Bryce's screen door analogy) or rotate from the centre about the spine. If the former, do you put the front hip forward or the back hip back?
Also do you believe that there is more power generated in this way than going from fudo dachi to zenkutsu dachin and back in the delivery and why.

Thanks

Geof.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Quote:
My understanding is that it's not really a vibration more of a slight rotation in in the backwards direction before rotation in the actual direction of the strike. Do you perform your technique using the front hip as the axis of rotation (Bryce's screen door analogy) or rotate from the centre about the spine. If the former, do you put the front hip forward or the back hip back?
Also do you believe that there is more power generated in this way than going from fudo dachi to zenkutsu dachin and back in the delivery and why.

Thanks

Geof.


No, that is not what I mean by hip vibration. There should be no backward motion. It is a basically very small rotation of the hip in the direction of the target. So lets take sochin, and part where you are doing the tate-shutouke before the renzuki punch. When you withdraw the right hand, and punch with the left hand, the left side of your hip does a very small motion towards the target that sends you fist and elbow to-wardstowards the target. Then after impact, you use your right hip to throw your righto-wardstowards the target, again, very small motion. It barely looks like your hips are moving, but they do rotate. Twisting to me implies a bigger motion, and that is not very natural to me. The fudo dachi is where your garnish your power, not the rotation. From the floor/or your feet and through your body is there is a kinetic link to your target. Sochin is about using your legs more so than hips in the kinetic link.

Not exactly sure if I I rotate around the spine or the front leg. To be honest, not sure if I know what this means exactly. But, assuming I have an idea of what this means, I guess rotate from the center. I tend to think my legs cause the rotation, and rotation is just a natural thing that you should let happen with the technique. It should not be a forced motion, independent of the action the legs.(I know you can not move your hips with out using your legs, but I mean that you should be feeling that your legs dictate the hip action).

Pulling one side back, or pushing one side forward, my ideas on karate is that it is all 50/50. So, I do both. I do not concentrate one or the other. I may train pulling at times, and propelling at other times, but in the end I aim to do both. Same with punching and draw hand.

I am talking about just keeping it in sochin-dachi. Of course if you move your body forward into the target(ie chinte)you will get greater results. I thought we were just talking about the hip rotation that occurs in sochin. People who do not know fudo-dachi well, either use the hips too much, or not at all. I am talking about small moves(a shimmy) in the direction of the target. There is no back action before hitting the target. Actually that is the wrong way to do hip vibration. It is a popular practice, but it is totally wrong. How does throwing the punch and then turning your hips in opposite direction and then back again before the fist hits the target imagine swinging a bat or a golf club in that manner. People would wonder what neurological would be.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed reply - sorry about the delay in replying to you - I wanted to think about it a bit. I see what you mean by your definition of "hip vibration" - there seem to be many variants of what people mean by this term. There is only a small amount of hip rotation available in sochin-dachi (at least that's the situation with my hips :) ). In sochin when I do the tate-shuto uke, I tend rotate the right hip forward to the maximum available without altering the stance (not straightening the back leg) - that gives tension in the core muscles to fire the left tsuki, left hip moving back to the natural position for sochin dachi and then right hip coming forward again to the max available in sochin for the gyaku tsuki. This is all rotation about the centre. I think this quite similar to your way of delivery?

The bit that required some thinking about was:
Makoto wrote:
From the floor/or your feet and through your body is there is a kinetic link to your target.
To me the connection to the floor has nothing directly to do with kinetics of the strike. To use a crude analogy, it would be a bit like saying the foundations of a windmill affected the speed st which the vanes went round. They just stop the windmill being blown over. Similarly the stance provides the foundations for the techniques and different stances will resist forces from differing directions. That all sounds rather laboured I'm afraid and I think just means I'm still not quite sure what you mean here.

Thanks again

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