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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:30 pm 
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John,
I just thought I'd see if I could illustrate what I understand as "hip vibration".
The oval just represents the pelvic basin, looking down on top of it with fig 1 as the starting position.
Image
This, I think, is how the Shorin ryu guys do with the hips rotating backwards about 10° towards hanmi (2) before rotating forwards for delivery of the punch. I'd always assumed that this would do two things:
  1. Pre-tension the core musculature, to increase the power behind the rotation
  2. Provide a longer arc of rotation which will increase the terminal velocity,
These rotate about the centre.
Image
This is how I think the Shukokai do it, taken to extremes by Peter Consterdine, who by all accounts punches extremely hard.
Here the front of the forward hip advances towards the target (2), before rotating not about the centre, but the forward hip itself in order to deliver the strike. This should provide an even longer arc of rotation and hence greater terminal angular velocity. I think it's because of the double movement they are sometimes referred to as a vibration, although double-hip twist seems more common.

Since I have never trained in either style, it's quite likely I've misinterpreted what one can see and why they do it. In either case, it feels quite unnatural and awkward when I've tried in out.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:35 am 
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Similarly the stance provides the foundations for the techniques and different stances will resist forces from differing directions. That all sounds rather laboured I'm afraid and I think just means I'm still not quite sure what you mean here.


What I am saying is that using the floor as a brace, or bracing yourself to the floor, as opposed to just standing on it, I feel one should use the stance to create power(meaning the punch starts with you pressing your feet/weight to the floor, followed by then using your leg muscles, next it turns the hip, and the hip throws the punch. If I can, I will take a video some time, when I teach and maybe you can see what I am saying.

To me there is nothing worse than seeing a person do a kata, especially sochin and the tate-double punch combonation, and not use their stance to help create the power. Why being in sochin stance to begin with?
To me it would be like a sprinter getting set up in the blocks and not using the blocks to help them start quickly. Why even bother then?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:43 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_0dc4aK08

This type of hip vibration is actually close to the double hip idea. I like this kind of action. I think it is very effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PZbInSsyc
jump to about 5:40 to the end to see what I am referring to here in this video.

This is the hip vibration many people do, but I feel it is wrong. You are actually snapping back your hips just before or as your punch hits the target. How does this aid in the effectiveness of a punch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ7iy50ng_s
43:39. Nishiyama, look at his hip action. The video quality is not good, and he only does it one time. So, you might need to rewind it a few times.
But, this is the hip vibration I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLZReVWPIQ
Take note at 0:14 and at 0:20. This is again the type of hip vibration I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVMIWlMfdCc
And here is a good example of what I am talking about as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-I7_AwWEao
This is kagawa teaching it as well.

So it is not a big overt motion. Also there is back action as such, just a slight move that throws the fist. That is what I feel is the correct way to do hip vibration. The second youtube video I posted is actually how I feel it should not be done. This type of action does not help, but actually hinders the punch.

I hope you understand my version of hip vibration now.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:03 pm 
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John,
Thanks for taking so much time to illustrate your point. I do see what you mean, although the term "vibration" is one of those misnomers (IMO) that cause much misunderstanding. Try as I might tho', I can't come up with a good alternative :(.

Choka tsuki from Hachiji dachi is an interesting option to illustrate your point since mobility of the hips is very limited in this stance and therefore speed and power of the punch must either come from "core" muscles imparting a short but powerful twist to the shoulder to throw the punch, and/or the undesirable combination of pecs, triceps and anterior deltoids actively propelling the arm. Trying to get beginners to use the core to throw the arm and not push the arm in choka tsuki seemed one of the hardest things to teach.

Makoto wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a_0dc4aK08
This type of hip vibration is actually close to the double hip idea. I like this kind of action. I think it is very effective.
Yes, I see exactly what you mean. I notice the drop of the shoulder at the beginning of each punch, indicating a relaxed shoulder.

Makoto wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PZbInSsyc
jump to about 5:40 to the end to see what I am referring to here in this video.

Agreed, this is awful, in the left punch at 5:41, the hip is coming back before the arm is half extended. Even worse is the arm and hand position. In the right punch at 5:40, the arm comes across the body first and then the fist drops down, so the punch ends up a sort of flick.

Thanks again

Geof

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